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Old Sep 14, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54   #161
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Originally Posted by Errant Venture View Post
Thanks for proving you know absolutely nothing about high-end GvG and why it was so different from every other game out there xD
I am stunned and awed by your obvious knowledge about the game. Only someone with intimate understanding of the game and its mechanics could come up with such a logical and polished argument.
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Old Sep 14, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54   #162
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Originally Posted by Errant Venture View Post
Thanks for proving you know absolutely nothing about high-end GvG and why it was so different from every other game out there xD
Oh god, you must of never done high-end GvG then...
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Old Sep 14, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09   #163
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Originally Posted by Skyy High View Post
Energy management: removing it does simplify the game, but they're adding in a ton of focus on positioning. Positioning was always important, but not nearly as much as it looks like it's going to be in GW2. Something has to give. I still think that if they take some of the community suggestions about energy management it'd make a world of difference in terms of strategy.
Removing e-management is probably the worst idea if you want balanced PvP, but you seem to recognize that, so lets move on.

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Secondary professions: Lulz, you're citing this as something that made GW1 PvP good? Secondary profession abuse was the single biggest contributing factor to gimmicks, period. Hexway, spiritway, Thumpers, scythe sins, scythe rangers, R/P, R/A, fast cast water mesmers, etc, etc, etc. And you're going to sit there and tell me how it's going to hurt PvP for it to be removed? F***, it's what people have been asking for in GW1 for years, to nerf everything so secondary abuse is impossible.
Secondary professions in and of themselves aren't bad. Secondary professions when used as intended provide utility.
The fact that Anet mostly did a poor job of balancing the game is what made secondary professions a problem.

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Diverse skill choices: First off, meta was king; I'd be willing to wager that three quarters of the skills were never used in a high end PvP match in any given meta, and of the rest only a portion were used regularly at any one time. Second, traits. They open up a huge amount of diversity, just by being able to tweak your skills alone. Third, the ability to mix and match weapon sets to bring different sets of skills to the table is another huge area that you can expand, an area that simply did not exist in GW1.
I don't think that anyone will argue that the huge pool of skill choices in GW1 wasn't a problem. Skill diversity can be a good thing, but it has to be very meticulously regimented.

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Dedicated healers: Clearly can't be all that integral to balanced PvP, since every other game has it and it doesn't make them any more balanced. The game is balanced around monks, they are the single most important class in the game, and that is blatantly unhealthy. No class should be THAT vital. I challenge you to give me one good reason that a team should be such a house of cards that taking out a monk = GG wipe.
It would seem that in any PvP, active healing should be a necessary component. A game without active healing is a game in which dying is of no significance- sounds like a game for 5 year olds.

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Prots: Are you kidding me? They've specifically said that we're getting prots. Hell, blind alone acts more like a prot now (only works on one attack, use it wisely, don't spam it on recharge). We have half of the classes revealed, and we don't even have a fraction of all of the skills. I'm taking their word, thanks; beats throwing my hands in the air and going "zomg they don't have any prot!!!"
Defense and prot are different. If you can't see the tremendous amount of skill inherent in quality protting, then the only safe assumption is that you never left PvE. There's nothing wrong with never leaving PvE, but don't engage in debates about high-end PvP if that is the case.

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Body blocks: I'm happy that rubber banding is dying, thanks. No more free snares either; you want to snare someone, bring a profession with snares. Shocking, I know.
I'm not sure what to say about this. Bodyblocking is solid technique. Rubberbanding is a graphical issue and should certainly be fixed, but if you're knocking bodyblocking... wow.

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"Bull's Strike is always the example everyone brings up when they talk about "good conditionals". There's a reason for that: it's the most skill-intensive to land consistently. Of course, it's still not really all that skill-intensive, since there's no penalty for missing; you could just spam it on recharge and you'll get a free KD on top of some +damage eventually."
The difference between skillful use and spamming is the difference between high-end and low-end players. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

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So...yeah, what were you saying about "shit PvP" again? Oh, right, you think the game with the devs who have actually claimed that traditional MMO design is the holy grail, and they're just trying to perfect it (with some VO work on top, of course!). And you expect this new game to be different from every other game that's been built that way...why, exactly? In other words: which takes more faith, to believe that the devs who have outright stated they want to fix everything that's wrong with the genre might end up making something better, or to believe that the devs who think everything is hunky-dory with the genre might stumble into some PvP that's magically better than anything we've seen in every other game before it?
GW PvP was intended to be different from the traditional MMO, as will be any form of PvP that can be said to be "high end". So...yeah.If you really don't know the difference between high-end and low-end PvP then "...yeah, I think I'm allowed to say you don't know s***."

Last edited by Ka Tet; Sep 14, 2010 at 10:11 PM // 22:11..
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Old Sep 14, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08   #164
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Removing e-management is probably the worst idea if you want balanced PvP, but you seem to recognize that, so lets move on.
Agreed. E-management was a game within the game. Sucks GW2 won't have it :/. Been arguing it over on the GW2Guru forums.


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Secondary professions in and of themselves aren't bad. Secondary professions when used as intended provide utility.
The fact that Anet mostly did a poor job of balancing the game is what made secondary professions a problem.
Sure, Anet may not have balanced it correctly. But guess what's been a major factor in gimmicks since the dawn of GW1's PvP? Secondary Professions. I don't care who you are, it's near impossible to balance. Secondary profs have always been the root of GW1's unbalanced problems.

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I don't think that anyone will argue that the huge pool of skill choices in GW1 wasn't a problem. Skill diversity can be a good thing, but it has to be very meticulously regimented.
I like that GW2 has less skills and is more focus on how you use them/positioning. Aka: No more Build Wars.

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It would seem that in any PvP, active healing should be a necessary component. A game without active healing is a game in which dying is of no significance- sounds like a game for 5 year olds.
Mmmm, I wonder how FPS games have survived. (in case you didn't know, Anet is moving towards that type of gameplay in PvP)

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Defense and prot are different. If you can't see the tremendous amount of skill inherent in quality protting, then the only safe assumption is that you never left PvE. There's nothing wrong with never leaving PvE, but don't engage in debates about high-end PvP if that is the case.
Not really. Protection is a synonym of defense. Hell, Aegis is another word for defense. When Anet themselves have even stated Prots will return, I think I will trust that (sorry no source, but I'm 100% positive they have said it).

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I'm not sure what to say about this. Bodyblocking is solid technique. Rubberbanding is a graphical issue and should certainly be fixed, but if you're knocking bodyblocking... wow.
Bodyblocking is a very good technique in GW1. But this isn't GW1. Plus the main thing I can think of is bodyblocking the flag runner. Or stop someone running away (which what snares are for you know? Now that there will be an abundance of them in GW2). When will that ever happen in GW2?


Quote:
GW PvP was intended to be different from the traditional MMO, as will be any form of PvP that can be said to be "high end". So...yeah.If you really don't know the difference between high-end and low-end PvP then "...yeah, I think I'm allowed to say you don't know s***."
And GW2 will continue on GW1's footing: Being different from traditional MMOs in terms of PvP. We don't even know that much as of now, but we do know that is different then GW1 or any other MMO for that matter. Like I said earlier, GW2 is going towards more of a FPS feel to it's PvP. That is automatically different then any MMO I can think of off the top of my head...
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Old Sep 14, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27   #165
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Originally Posted by own age myname View Post

1. Sure, Anet may not have balanced it correctly. But guess what's been a major factor in gimmicks since the dawn of GW1's PvP? Secondary Professions. I don't care who you are, it's near impossible to balance. Secondary profs have always been the root of GW1's unbalanced problems.

2. Mmmm, I wonder how FPS games have survived. (in case you didn't know, Anet is moving towards that type of gameplay in PvP)

3. Not really. Protection is a synonym of defense. Hell, Aegis is another word for defense. When Anet themselves have even stated Prots will return, I think I will trust that (sorry no source, but I'm 100% positive they have said it).

4. And GW2 will continue on GW1's footing: Being different from traditional MMOs in terms of PvP. We don't even know that much as of now, but we do know that is different then GW1 or any other MMO for that matter. Like I said earlier, GW2 is going towards more of a FPS feel to it's PvP. That is automatically different then any MMO I can think of off the top of my head...
I cut out the things we agreed on, no sense leaving them in.

1. We seem to agree that imbalance is what makes secondary prof's bad. Mending touch on a ranger = utility, is good. RaO with a hammer = imbalanced, is bad.

2. FPS and RPG are very different. FPS is mostly twitch. RPG is mostly RTS. These are completely different styles of games.

3. Defense is team wide, within a certain area or sometimes self-directed. Prot is deliberately and actively preventing damage. Aegis is defense; Guardian is prot. Ward foes is defense; spirit bond on a spike is prot.

4. basically see #2.
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Old Sep 14, 2010, 11:37 PM // 23:37   #166
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I cut out the things we agreed on, no sense leaving them in.

1. We seem to agree that imbalance is what makes secondary prof's bad. Mending touch on a ranger = utility, is good. RaO with a hammer = imbalanced, is bad.

2. FPS and RPG are very different. FPS is mostly twitch. RPG is mostly RTS. These are completely different styles of games.

3. Defense is team wide, within a certain area or sometimes self-directed. Prot is deliberately and actively preventing damage. Aegis is defense; Guardian is prot. Ward foes is defense; spirit bond on a spike is prot.

4. basically see #2.


1. Ya, not in every sense that secondary professions are bad. It's just, imo, they caused more bad then good.

2. I don't understand. GW1 = MMORPG and it's not an RTS. Actually, even GW1 was even more towards the side of FPS when it comes towards things like the Ranger (rupts come to mind).

Basically, there is no need for healing. MMOs are the ones who came up with the stupid idea. You're so adamant that because no other MMO has never done no healers means that it will never work.

3. Defense to me is actively protecting another teammates/yourself. Spirit bond is actively protecting. Aegis actively protects.
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Old Sep 15, 2010, 03:14 AM // 03:14   #167
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First, it's nice to have an actual coherent discussion on here; it can be rare.

What I mean by the difference between prot and defense is that prot is more direct. Defense would be like if you're hiding behind a wall and the wall gets hit with arrows. Prot would be like if you're holding a shield and move that shield to block an arrow in flight; it's deliberate and specific. Yes, guardian and old school aegis will both block attacks. The difference is old-school aegis is set-it-and-forget-it. It's not there to block attacks for any specific person, it's just a wall. Guardian is used to deliberately block attacks directed at a specific person, it's like throwing a shield in front of someone to protect them from an arrow flying at them. I hope that made a little more sense.

I'm adamant about healing, because it's a great mechanic. Without healing, the game becomes very one-dimensional. If there were no healing, hexers with speed buffs would most likely win every map.

Not being a fps-person myself, it's a bit difficult for me to express what I want to say there. It would be like if I tried to relate GW to Nascar. I don't have the expertise in the second area to speak well about it, so I'm going to take a pass on the fps-rpg thing.
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Old Sep 15, 2010, 04:42 AM // 04:42   #168
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Probably, If its released 4q/2010-1q/2011 Yes im Buying it, If later then that... Not sure from now it seems gonna be bussy after
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Old Sep 15, 2010, 09:29 AM // 09:29   #169
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Well.. it's obvious that PvE is WoW based but since WoW spent so much time developing I don't think GW2 stands a chance near them... and from what I read PvP in GW2 is pure crap so...WoW>GW2.
p.s. I'm WoW hater!
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Old Sep 15, 2010, 11:19 AM // 11:19   #170
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I aint buying a wow copy...few things are different but its still wow based


nuff said, please remove this guys posting rights.
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Old Sep 15, 2010, 12:20 PM // 12:20   #171
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First, it's nice to have an actual coherent discussion on here; it can be rare.

What I mean by the difference between prot and defense is that prot is more direct. Defense would be like if you're hiding behind a wall and the wall gets hit with arrows. Prot would be like if you're holding a shield and move that shield to block an arrow in flight; it's deliberate and specific. Yes, guardian and old school aegis will both block attacks. The difference is old-school aegis is set-it-and-forget-it. It's not there to block attacks for any specific person, it's just a wall. Guardian is used to deliberately block attacks directed at a specific person, it's like throwing a shield in front of someone to protect them from an arrow flying at them. I hope that made a little more sense.

I'm adamant about healing, because it's a great mechanic. Without healing, the game becomes very one-dimensional. If there were no healing, hexers with speed buffs would most likely win every map.

Not being a fps-person myself, it's a bit difficult for me to express what I want to say there. It would be like if I tried to relate GW to Nascar. I don't have the expertise in the second area to speak well about it, so I'm going to take a pass on the fps-rpg thing.
Ya, it is nice lol. GW1Guru is full of whiners now

First off; I think we are both on the same page on prot/defense. In GW2 both of those situations will be happening. I just personally bunch it up and call it protection, while you think they two different things. But either way, they both will exist.

Healing; You're going off GW1 standards. I myself also go off GW1 standards too much in terms of PvP (which we know little about in the name of balance). As far as I know, I don't even think there are hexes in GW2. Ya sure, in GW1 if you take out healers that hexers would be an "I Win" class. But in terms of GW2 we just don't know. Hopefully we will know in the coming months.

I'll explain how GW2's basic foundation of PVP is. WvW = 3 servers fighting it out throughout the whole week. Very casual. Winner get server bonuses. 2nd type of PvP will be hot-joinable (like a FPS). I don't quite understand how that is different from WvW but from 500v500 to 5v5 (which is what it will be). Lastly, there will be competitive PvP. Much like GvG. Organize a team of 5 and battle it out. Tournaments, and maybe the return of e-gaming?
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Old Sep 15, 2010, 12:51 PM // 12:51   #172
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I probably wont buy it.... just dont seem to be that interesting
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Old Sep 15, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28   #173
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i will buy it,play it is a diffrent matter though,so far from the videos it looks like a FTP game
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Old Sep 15, 2010, 03:53 PM // 15:53   #174
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File Transfer Protocol? That'd certainly be a different way to play a game...
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Old Sep 16, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58   #175
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Does anyone get the feeling that the game is a rehash of Aion?
The game looks pretty much identical, and it sucked so monumentally as well because of the same reasons GW1 is bad. Rampant bottery, ignorant devs who only ever act too-late and the fact its and NCSoft game, means it'll be bad.
This has probably been said before but I haven't bothered to read the thread.
I fear the same for GW2 so I don't think I'll be buying it.
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Old Sep 16, 2010, 05:01 PM // 17:01   #176
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Perhaps I'll start AION again. We'll see, I'm incredibly dissapointed over that they are not having a healer class 6.6


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Does anyone get the feeling that the game is a rehash of Aion?
The game looks pretty much identical, and it sucked so monumentally as well because of the same reasons GW1 is bad. Rampant bottery, ignorant devs who only ever act too-late and the fact its and NCSoft game, means it'll be bad.
This has probably been said before but I haven't bothered to read the thread.
I fear the same for GW2 so I don't think I'll be buying it.
Same with Tera online, looks like a copy of AION aswell, just look at that tiny class you can play, which you can be a panda, looks so much like AION. Just that the chicks looks the worst I've ever seen, I like good armor but jeeze, gstring and the typical super tiny pantie with a bra armor, no thank >.<
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Old Sep 17, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17   #177
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Originally Posted by Ranger Brummy View Post
Does anyone get the feeling that the game is a rehash of Aion?
The game looks pretty much identical, and it sucked so monumentally as well because of the same reasons GW1 is bad. Rampant bottery, ignorant devs who only ever act too-late and the fact its and NCSoft game, means it'll be bad.
This has probably been said before but I haven't bothered to read the thread.
I fear the same for GW2 so I don't think I'll be buying it.
-.-

Just ignore this poster.
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Old Sep 17, 2010, 10:30 PM // 22:30   #178
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Originally Posted by Ranger Brummy View Post
Does anyone get the feeling that the game is a rehash of Aion?
The game looks pretty much identical, and it sucked so monumentally as well because of the same reasons GW1 is bad. Rampant bottery, ignorant devs who only ever act too-late and the fact its and NCSoft game, means it'll be bad.
This has probably been said before but I haven't bothered to read the thread.
I fear the same for GW2 so I don't think I'll be buying it.
That seems pretty accurate. Aion without wings.
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Old Sep 18, 2010, 02:12 AM // 02:12   #179
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Originally Posted by Nekodesu View Post
Same with Tera online, looks like a copy of AION aswell, just look at that tiny class you can play, which you can be a panda, looks so much like AION. Just that the chicks looks the worst I've ever seen, I like good armor but jeeze, gstring and the typical super tiny pantie with a bra armor, no thank >.<
I'm sure you know, but Tera people illegally got ahold of some of L3's source code (see the lawsuit). I don't know if there's any connection between L3 and Aion, other than NCSoft being the publisher of both, but that may contribute to Tera looking like Aion.

GW2 may not be a WoW clone, but it takes on many generic mmo aspects that were not present in GW1. It has nothing to do with Anet/GW2 copying WoW, it's a hit on Anet for going the way of most mmo's with a high level cap and such that was not the case with the original GW1. It's a disappointment for people who were fans before GW2 came into existence.
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Old Sep 18, 2010, 03:30 AM // 03:30   #180
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I will never play a game that just came out I will give out about a few weeks then decide to buy it. BTW Aion looks a little too much too handle.

As for if I am going to buy it. Depends on the gameplay, feel and graphics.
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